Discussion:
Date limit set on first Americans
(too old to reply)
Diarmid Logan
2003-07-22 14:09:15 UTC
Permalink
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3086777.stm


Date limit set on first Americans

By Paul Rincon

BBC Science

A new genetic study deals a blow to claims that humans reached America
at least 30,000 years ago - around the same time that people were
colonising Europe.

The subject of when humans first arrived in America is hotly contested
by academics.

On one side of the argument are researchers who claim America was
first populated around 13,000 years ago, toward the end of the last
Ice Age. On the other are those who propose a much earlier date for
colonisation of the continent - possibly around 30,000-40,000 years
ago.

The authors of the latest study reject the latter theory, proposing
that humans entered America no earlier than 18,000 years ago.

They looked at mutations on the form of the human Y chromosome known
as haplotype 10.

This is one of only two haplotypes carried by Native American men and
is thought to have reached the continent first. Haplotype 10 is also
found in Asia, confirming that the earliest Americans came from there.

The scientists knew that determining when mutations occurred on
haplotype 10 might reveal a date for the first entry of people into
America.

Native Americans carry a mutation called M3 on haplotype 10 which is
not found in Asia. This suggests it appeared after people settled in
America, making it useless for assigning a date to the first
migrations.

But a mutation known as M242 looked more promising. M242 is found in
Asia and America, suggesting that it appeared before the first
Americans split from their Asian kin.

Knowing the rate at which DNA on the Y chromosome mutates - errors
occur - and the time taken for a single male generation, the
scientists were able to calculate when M242 originated. They arrived
at a maximum date of 18,000 years ago for its appearance.

This means the first Americans were still living in Asia when M242
appeared and could only have begun their migration eastwards after
this date.

"I would say that they entered [America] within the last 15,000
years," said Dr Spencer Wells, a geneticist and author who contributed
to the latest study.

In 1997, a US-Chilean team uncovered apparent evidence of human
occupation in 33,000-year-old sediment layers at Monte Verde in Chile.

They claimed that burned wood found at the site came from fires at
hunting camps and that fractured pebbles found there were used by
humans to butcher meat. But the interpretation of these remains has
been questioned by several experts.

The debate over the biological origins of the first Americans has
wide-ranging political and racial implications.

In the US, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act
(Nagpra) has resulted in the handover of many scientific collections
to claimants.

Some archaeologists argue that the remains of early Americans are
sufficiently different from their descendents to be exempt from
Nagpra.

For example, a 9,300-year-old skull from Washington State known as
Kennewick Man has been interpreted as looking European due to its
long, narrow (dolichocephalic) skull shape. More recent American
populations tend to have short, broad skulls.

Dr Wells said individuals such as Kennewick Man looked this way
because Europeans and early Americans had a common origin around
35,000-40,000 years ago in south-central Asia.

"[Dolichocephaly] is a general feature of very early skulls," Dr Wells
told BBC News Online.

He said a later migration into America from East Asia 6,000-10,000
years ago associated with the spread of Y chromosome haplotype 5 could
have been responsible for the Asiatic appearance of many present-day
Native Americans.

But Dr Wells acknowledged the possibility that even more ancient
American populations carrying unidentified Y chromosome haplotypes
could have been swamped by later migrations, resulting in their
genetic legacy being erased.

"We can't rule that out," he said, "but in science we have to deal
with what's extant."


http://diarmidlogan.blogspot.com/
Philip Deitiker
2003-07-22 14:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diarmid Logan
They claimed that burned wood found at the site came from fires at
hunting camps and that fractured pebbles found there were used by
humans to butcher meat. But the interpretation of these remains has
been questioned by several experts.
There's that pebble culture again. But oddly it disappeared
in Japan 16 kya and it is appearing in the new world 15 kya.
Sounds like a displacement. What happens in Japan 15 kya,
protoJomon arrives. What does that look like, clovis
culture.
Post by Diarmid Logan
For example, a 9,300-year-old skull from Washington State known as
Kennewick Man has been interpreted as looking European due to its
long, narrow (dolichocephalic) skull shape. More recent American
populations tend to have short, broad skulls.
Dr Wells said individuals such as Kennewick Man looked this way
because Europeans and early Americans had a common origin around
35,000-40,000 years ago in south-central Asia.
Native americans did not have a common origins in south
central asia. They have many points of origin from
melanesians that came up through Japan in the south to
diplaced WEA/ME that came up from the south west to siberia.
To mongols that came from siberia proper . . . . .
Post by Diarmid Logan
But Dr Wells acknowledged the possibility that even more ancient
American populations carrying unidentified Y chromosome haplotypes
could have been swamped by later migrations, resulting in their
genetic legacy being erased.
"We can't rule that out," he said, "but in science we have to deal
with what's extant."
Then he should make a trip to Japan.
Gisele Horvat
2003-07-22 19:19:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:56:36 -0500, Philip Deitiker
Post by Philip Deitiker
Post by Diarmid Logan
They claimed that burned wood found at the site came from fires at
hunting camps and that fractured pebbles found there were used by
humans to butcher meat. But the interpretation of these remains has
been questioned by several experts.
There's that pebble culture again. But oddly it disappeared
in Japan 16 kya and it is appearing in the new world 15 kya.
Sounds like a displacement. What happens in Japan 15 kya,
protoJomon arrives. What does that look like, clovis
culture.
Post by Diarmid Logan
For example, a 9,300-year-old skull from Washington State known as
Kennewick Man has been interpreted as looking European due to its
long, narrow (dolichocephalic) skull shape. More recent American
populations tend to have short, broad skulls.
Here we go again. What is not made clear in this article is that the
majority of the Native American Y chromsomes are phylogenetically
closer to those of Europeans than to Asians. Quoting Lell et al.
(2002):

"The major Native American founding lineage, haplogroup M3, accounted
for 66% of male Y chromosomes and was defined by the biallelic markers
M89, M9, M45, and M3. ...The second major group of Native American Y
chromosomes, haplogroup M45, accounted for about one-quarter of male
lineages."

We're already up to about 91%...

"Among the remaining 5% of Native American Y chromosomes is haplogroup
RPS4Y-T, found in North America."

RPS4Y-T is the 'Asian' haplotype.

By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested? That the
same haplotypes, which currently appear to be quite rare in Eastern
Asia, were introduced twice - once along with traits similar to those
of Europeans to account for the appearance of the Kennewick Man and
once with traits similar to those of Asians? This is not what Wells
suggested, though:

"He said a later migration into America from East Asia 6,000-10,000
years ago associated with the spread of Y chromosome haplotype 5 could
have been responsible for the Asiatic appearance of many present-day
Native Americans."

RPS4Y is haplotype 5.

If mtDNAs are maternally inherited and Y chromosomes - paternally
inherited, it should be possible to superimpose one phylogenetic chart
upon the other. Using the well-sampled Europeans as a reference
point:

Y chromosome M89 M9 M45 - precedes the majority of the European
haplotypes as do mtDNA sequences which have 12705T and 16223T. The
predominant Native American haplogroup (A) fits in this category. In
the New World, Y chromosome mutation M3 is thought to have occurred on
this M45 haplotype and been carried back to Asia. This agrees well
with the mtDNA haplogroup A sequences which could have been carried at
the same time.

The Asian/Native American mtDNA haplogroup which is roughly parallel,
phylogenetically, to the majority of the haplogroups of Europe is 'B'.
This could correspond with the Y chromsome haplotypes which have
variants M89 M9 M45 M173 since this haplotype was considered to be a
Native American founding haplotype by Lell and it is found at
relatively high frequency in Polynesia. In Europe, Polynesia and the
New World, at least, Y chromosome M89 M9 M45 M173 could correspond
with mtDNA haplogroups which have 12705C & 16223C and which are called
haplogroup cluster R.

Y chromsome RPS4Y-T could correspond with the mtDNA macro-haplogroup M
sequences in the Americas (haplogroups C & D).

In summary, Native American mtDNA sequences can be separated into 3
groups: 1) the ones which preceded the majority of the European,
phylogenetically, 2) the ones which are considered to be roughly
parallel and 3) the ones closer to those of Asians. If you divide the
relevant Y chromosome haplotypes into the same three groups,
correlations similar to the ones I have described above could be
found. But, *I* shouldn't have to be doing this, researchers in the
field should be and I should be quoting them.

I really just wanted to point out, though, how the low frequency of
the 'Asian' y haplotype is inconsistent with Wells explanation for the
physical description of Native Americans he provided.

Gisele
MIB529
2003-07-23 20:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
Orientals. So I give them the following Clue cards:

Clue #1: Most Indians ARE dolichocephalic. Only a few in Central
America are brachycephalic.
Clue #2: The cephalic index was discredited a century ago. It's as
useful as phrenology.
Duncan Craig
2003-07-24 02:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
I'm curious as to how the Spanish made up the myth of white gods in places
they had never been?... like Hawaii and the Marquesas.

Duncan
Post by MIB529
Clue #1: Most Indians ARE dolichocephalic. Only a few in Central
America are brachycephalic.
Clue #2: The cephalic index was discredited a century ago. It's as
useful as phrenology.
MIB529
2003-07-24 06:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duncan Craig
Post by MIB529
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
I'm curious as to how the Spanish made up the myth of white gods in places
they had never been?... like Hawaii and the Marquesas.
I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when he
entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white man's
burden. Of course, that doesn't stop folks like Barry Fell from
selling books.

In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
Tedd
2003-07-24 06:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
anthropology's reputation for racism was spurred because of Racial Scientism debates of the 19th
century, the monogenesis/polygenesis arguments of the 18th century, and then carried through by
british socio-anthropology. all pre 20th and 21st century, long before threads like this. lets keep
it realistic in accusations, misrepresentations are what lead to the impressions of derogatory
comments (and flaming).

dig deeper,

tedd.
MIB529
2003-07-25 03:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tedd
Post by MIB529
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
anthropology's reputation for racism was spurred because of Racial Scientism debates of the 19th
century, the monogenesis/polygenesis arguments of the 18th century,
Are you sure that's restricted to the 18th and 19th centuries? Why,
just three years ago, one of the Kennewick man plaintiffs (C Loring
Brace) was claiming Indians were Neanderthals, while another (David
Meltzer) was just happy with saying inbreeding lead to what he viewed
as inferiority.
Post by Tedd
and then carried through by
british socio-anthropology. all pre 20th and 21st century, long before threads like this.
I said "things like this thread", not "threads like this". The idea of
pre-Indian Caucasians is clearly one of those things. Notice how the
theory was posted on sites like Stormfront long before Kennewick man
was uncovered. And notice how, on the flip side of the coin,
Afrocentrics like John Henrik Clarke were claiming pre-Indian Negroids
in the 30s.
Post by Tedd
lets keep
it realistic in accusations, misrepresentations are what lead to the impressions of derogatory
comments (and flaming).
Diarmid Logan
2003-07-24 14:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when he
entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white man's
burden. Of course, that doesn't stop folks like Barry Fell from
selling books.
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
Just because you don't agree with the findings of the researchers does
not mean that these scientists were racists.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Philip Deitiker
2003-07-24 16:14:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:14:39 +0000 (UTC), "Diarmid Logan"
Post by Diarmid Logan
Post by MIB529
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
Just because you don't agree with the findings of the researchers does
not mean that these scientists were racists.
"White" has many contexts, it could be the color of
traditional makeup of a tribe or the fact that skin color
pales when people die, any one who insists that it must come
from some unseen contact from europe fits that catagory of a
racist, I think.

You know columbus did not sail directly to mexico, he ran
into islands, as any people would and then after further
sailing reached Mexico. Saying that gods are white and come
from this place or that place in the mexico central valley,
its a little bit far fetched for the lack of information
from other places. In terms of mexico the carribe indians
traveled between the outer islands and mexico, They may have
seen columbus and traveled to mexico informing the aztec
leaders that powerful white men are coming.


The basic problem is that these cypto-WE-racist see a hint
of something and they are on their high alters proclaiming
it as evidence. There is far more than a hint of evidence of
contact over a long period of time from Asia, and no-one is
on their high alter proclaiming it here, they are ignoring
it. If for instance Inger and Erik were talking about recent
off-continent contribution from both directions, I would
certainly think more highly of them than trying to turn
every bit of 'parallels' as evidence of pre-columbian
migration from WEA. Also note the groups they exclude, they
don't talk about the potency of the basque, legendary sea
peoples, nor do they talk about contribution from africa or
canary islands. They are simply focused on Egypt, Italy,
Spain, Ireland and _Sweden_. This is why you can say they
are racist.
MIB529
2003-07-25 01:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Very well-written, Philip. Might I add ANY contact from Asia also
makes the DNA useless, since the entire assumption of DNA is phyletic
isolation.

I have the following criteria before I believe in hyperdiffusion: 1)
An idea can't be a near-universal, 2) it has to be in both locations,
3) its evolution has to be tracked in location X, and not in location
Y, and 4) it must appear in location X before it appears in location
Y. Obviously, this hypothetical diffusion is X>Y. For technology, I
look for environmental reasons as well; if there's an environmental
reason for a technology in location Y, we can assume it was invented
independently.
Post by Philip Deitiker
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:14:39 +0000 (UTC), "Diarmid Logan"
Post by Diarmid Logan
Post by MIB529
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
Just because you don't agree with the findings of the researchers does
not mean that these scientists were racists.
"White" has many contexts, it could be the color of
traditional makeup of a tribe or the fact that skin color
pales when people die, any one who insists that it must come
from some unseen contact from europe fits that catagory of a
racist, I think.
You know columbus did not sail directly to mexico, he ran
into islands, as any people would and then after further
sailing reached Mexico. Saying that gods are white and come
from this place or that place in the mexico central valley,
its a little bit far fetched for the lack of information
from other places. In terms of mexico the carribe indians
traveled between the outer islands and mexico, They may have
seen columbus and traveled to mexico informing the aztec
leaders that powerful white men are coming.
The basic problem is that these cypto-WE-racist see a hint
of something and they are on their high alters proclaiming
it as evidence. There is far more than a hint of evidence of
contact over a long period of time from Asia, and no-one is
on their high alter proclaiming it here, they are ignoring
it. If for instance Inger and Erik were talking about recent
off-continent contribution from both directions, I would
certainly think more highly of them than trying to turn
every bit of 'parallels' as evidence of pre-columbian
migration from WEA. Also note the groups they exclude, they
don't talk about the potency of the basque, legendary sea
peoples, nor do they talk about contribution from africa or
canary islands. They are simply focused on Egypt, Italy,
Spain, Ireland and _Sweden_. This is why you can say they
are racist.
Philip Deitiker
2003-07-24 16:01:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:35:38 +1200, Eric Stevens
A good example of distortion and ad-hominem name dropping. Do you
actually have any evidence that the underlying story is not true?
You mean like Inger has been doing?
Eric Stevens
2003-07-24 20:43:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:01:07 -0500, Philip Deitiker
Post by Philip Deitiker
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:35:38 +1200, Eric Stevens
A good example of distortion and ad-hominem name dropping. Do you
actually have any evidence that the underlying story is not true?
You mean like Inger has been doing?
Like there is any factual basis for Duncan Craig's statement
(deliberately snipped by you) that:

"I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when
he entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white
man's burden."

I'm not arguing one way or another for the origin of that story but I
certainly wouldn't try to reach a conclusion on the basis a statement
such as Duncan's. I was hoping he could produce a better argument.



Eric Stevens
Diarmid Logan
2003-07-24 21:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
Post by Duncan Craig
Post by MIB529
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
I'm curious as to how the Spanish made up the myth of white gods in places
they had never been?... like Hawaii and the Marquesas.
I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when he
entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white man's
burden. Of course, that doesn't stop folks like Barry Fell from
selling books.
In case your wondering, things like this thread are why anthropology
has a reputation for racism.
So you are accusing Spencer Wells and the other scientists who
participated in this research racists?
MIB529
2003-07-25 02:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
Post by Duncan Craig
Post by MIB529
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
I'm curious as to how the Spanish made up the myth of white gods in places
they had never been?... like Hawaii and the Marquesas.
I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when he
entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white man's
burden. Of course, that doesn't stop folks like Barry Fell from
selling books.
A good example of distortion and ad-hominem name dropping. Do you
actually have any evidence that the underlying story is not true?
Because no Aztec deity even appears to be fully human?
Eric Stevens
2003-07-25 02:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIB529
Post by MIB529
Post by Duncan Craig
Post by MIB529
Post by Gisele Horvat
By mentioning "short broad skulls", what is being suggested?
I'll be blunt: What's being "suggested" is the same shit that folks
have "suggested" ever since the Spanish made up the myth about white
gods. They manage to get away with it by lumping Indians with
I'm curious as to how the Spanish made up the myth of white gods in places
they had never been?... like Hawaii and the Marquesas.
I meant white gods in Mexico. No one with two brain cells to rub
together really believes Cortes was worshipped as a god when he
entered Tenochtitlan; the story's contrived, and reeks of white man's
burden. Of course, that doesn't stop folks like Barry Fell from
selling books.
A good example of distortion and ad-hominem name dropping. Do you
actually have any evidence that the underlying story is not true?
Because no Aztec deity even appears to be fully human?
Did Cortez appear fully human to the Aztecs?



Eric Stevens
deowll
2003-07-23 21:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Deitiker
Post by Diarmid Logan
They claimed that burned wood found at the site came from fires at
hunting camps and that fractured pebbles found there were used by
humans to butcher meat. But the interpretation of these remains has
been questioned by several experts.
There's that pebble culture again. But oddly it disappeared
in Japan 16 kya and it is appearing in the new world 15 kya.
Sounds like a displacement. What happens in Japan 15 kya,
protoJomon arrives. What does that look like, clovis
culture.
I'm not sure I know what Clovis culture looks like. Most artifacts other
than the points are sort of generic. I've never seen something I could call
a Clovis point from Asia. Unless you know something I don't I think the
points developed in North America. I don't question a linkage between North
Easter Asian culture and Native American culture.

I would bet that the expansion took place before the displacement or at
least the people displaced aren't the ones that moved when the group
expanded. In most cases the ones dispaced die with few if any descendents
while some may be absorbed. Large bodies of people did move around after the
mesolithic but before that is seems to have been one small group moving then
budding off another group at the expense of the neighbors and so on.
Post by Philip Deitiker
Post by Diarmid Logan
For example, a 9,300-year-old skull from Washington State known as
Kennewick Man has been interpreted as looking European due to its
long, narrow (dolichocephalic) skull shape. More recent American
populations tend to have short, broad skulls.
Dr Wells said individuals such as Kennewick Man looked this way
because Europeans and early Americans had a common origin around
35,000-40,000 years ago in south-central Asia.
Native americans did not have a common origins in south
central asia. They have many points of origin from
melanesians that came up through Japan in the south to
diplaced WEA/ME that came up from the south west to siberia.
To mongols that came from siberia proper . . . . .
Post by Diarmid Logan
But Dr Wells acknowledged the possibility that even more ancient
American populations carrying unidentified Y chromosome haplotypes
could have been swamped by later migrations, resulting in their
genetic legacy being erased.
"We can't rule that out," he said, "but in science we have to deal
with what's extant."
Genes not found in a living populations aren't found in a living population
and taking a trip won't help. Genes that once were but have no living owners
are gone. Sometime you might get lucky and find a few but as you have
pointed out unless they are frozen somewhere in the tundra the older ones
are most likely gone.
Post by Philip Deitiker
Then he should make a trip to Japan.
Philip Deitiker
2003-07-24 16:00:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:09:56 -0600, "Tedd"
this opens up a whole other topic of debate; there is currently (as far as my undergraduate
knowledge knows) no supportive evidence for linkage between clovis technology or clovis culture and
asian contexts. there are multiple relationships as evident in the record between alaska and eastern
asia, but as of yet no one has been able to produce a clear relationship to link alaska and clovis
of the lower 48. dates retrieved from alaskan sites which are claimed to be pre-clovis are still
disputed due to carbon contamination and lack of cultural layer association, those that are
established are shown to be younger than clovis. in both cases neither group of dated sites contain
assemblages that show any cultural relation to clovis.
C. Vance Haynes 1982
Irrelevantly old.
Roosevelt, Douglas and Brown 2002
There are researchers that say that, but I frankly disagree
with them. There is a current divide in this study some come
for cultural exchange and carry over from asia, some come
against it. I think in the next 5 years the archaeology from
Japan will become so convincing that no-one would reasonably
there was no cultural carry over from asia.
Michael Clark
2003-07-25 03:53:17 UTC
Permalink
[..]
this opens up a whole other topic of debate; there is currently (as far as my
undergraduate
knowledge knows) no supportive evidence for linkage between clovis technology or
clovis culture and
asian contexts. there are multiple relationships as evident in the record between
alaska and eastern
asia, but as of yet no one has been able to produce a clear relationship to link
alaska and clovis
of the lower 48. dates retrieved from alaskan sites which are claimed to be
pre-clovis are still
disputed due to carbon contamination and lack of cultural layer association,
those that are
established are shown to be younger than clovis. in both cases neither group of
dated sites contain
assemblages that show any cultural relation to clovis.
C. Vance Haynes 1982
Roosevelt, Douglas and Brown 2002
tedd.
Has anything been done to compare clovis points with Monte Verde points?
Some references:

Clovis revisited: New Perspectives on Paleoindian Adaptations from
Blackwater Draw, New Mexico (Philadelphia: The University Museum,
University of Pennsylvania, 1999) Anthony T. Bouldurian, John L. Cotter

The Fenn Cache: Clovis Weapons and Tools (Santa Fe: One Horse
Land and Cattle Company, 1999) George Frisson, Bruce Bradley

Clovis Blade Technology: A Comparative Study of the Kevin Davis
Cache, Texas (Austin: University of Texas Press, 1999) Michael B. Collins,
Marvin Kay
Duncan
MIB529
2003-07-23 20:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, and moon dust proves a young earth. You don't date something by
the YOUNGEST date; you date something by the OLDEST date.

Anyway, the idea of telling the age of a mutation eerily mirrors
neo-Lamarckism, in which the organism "remembered" its ancestral forms
and was thus able to go through them more quickly, adding something at
the end. Seems there are still those who would Haeckel biology.

As for the skull shape, here's a second clue for you: Most Indians are
dolichocephalic, and the cephalic index was discredited a century ago.
Quit trying to find differences between ancient remains and Orientals,
as if all brown-skinned people look alike.

Reminds me of Hooten's claim of "pseudo-Australoids",
"pseudo-Negroids", "pseudo-Alpines", and "long-faced Europeans", all
in a single pueblo 700 years ago. His data, when viewed from a
scientific lens, disproves any claim of pre-Indian Caucasians; after
all, if these Caucasians were here 700 years ago, in the middle of the
Mojave no less, then a cline exists - while the entire "pre-Indian
Caucasian" claim rests on the lack of a cline.
Post by Diarmid Logan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3086777.stm
Date limit set on first Americans
By Paul Rincon
BBC Science
A new genetic study deals a blow to claims that humans reached America
at least 30,000 years ago - around the same time that people were
colonising Europe.
The subject of when humans first arrived in America is hotly contested
by academics.
On one side of the argument are researchers who claim America was
first populated around 13,000 years ago, toward the end of the last
Ice Age. On the other are those who propose a much earlier date for
colonisation of the continent - possibly around 30,000-40,000 years
ago.
The authors of the latest study reject the latter theory, proposing
that humans entered America no earlier than 18,000 years ago.
They looked at mutations on the form of the human Y chromosome known
as haplotype 10.
This is one of only two haplotypes carried by Native American men and
is thought to have reached the continent first. Haplotype 10 is also
found in Asia, confirming that the earliest Americans came from there.
The scientists knew that determining when mutations occurred on
haplotype 10 might reveal a date for the first entry of people into
America.
Native Americans carry a mutation called M3 on haplotype 10 which is
not found in Asia. This suggests it appeared after people settled in
America, making it useless for assigning a date to the first
migrations.
But a mutation known as M242 looked more promising. M242 is found in
Asia and America, suggesting that it appeared before the first
Americans split from their Asian kin.
Knowing the rate at which DNA on the Y chromosome mutates - errors
occur - and the time taken for a single male generation, the
scientists were able to calculate when M242 originated. They arrived
at a maximum date of 18,000 years ago for its appearance.
This means the first Americans were still living in Asia when M242
appeared and could only have begun their migration eastwards after
this date.
"I would say that they entered [America] within the last 15,000
years," said Dr Spencer Wells, a geneticist and author who contributed
to the latest study.
In 1997, a US-Chilean team uncovered apparent evidence of human
occupation in 33,000-year-old sediment layers at Monte Verde in Chile.
They claimed that burned wood found at the site came from fires at
hunting camps and that fractured pebbles found there were used by
humans to butcher meat. But the interpretation of these remains has
been questioned by several experts.
The debate over the biological origins of the first Americans has
wide-ranging political and racial implications.
In the US, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act
(Nagpra) has resulted in the handover of many scientific collections
to claimants.
Some archaeologists argue that the remains of early Americans are
sufficiently different from their descendents to be exempt from
Nagpra.
For example, a 9,300-year-old skull from Washington State known as
Kennewick Man has been interpreted as looking European due to its
long, narrow (dolichocephalic) skull shape. More recent American
populations tend to have short, broad skulls.
Dr Wells said individuals such as Kennewick Man looked this way
because Europeans and early Americans had a common origin around
35,000-40,000 years ago in south-central Asia.
"[Dolichocephaly] is a general feature of very early skulls," Dr Wells
told BBC News Online.
He said a later migration into America from East Asia 6,000-10,000
years ago associated with the spread of Y chromosome haplotype 5 could
have been responsible for the Asiatic appearance of many present-day
Native Americans.
But Dr Wells acknowledged the possibility that even more ancient
American populations carrying unidentified Y chromosome haplotypes
could have been swamped by later migrations, resulting in their
genetic legacy being erased.
"We can't rule that out," he said, "but in science we have to deal
with what's extant."
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